Episode 1

In which Terence and Philip clarify that they are 1) Not Canadian, 2) have no connection with any other show by any similar name, and 3) are politically incorrect. Discussion then moves on to whether or not Apple need to remake Log and Capture for the next version of Final Cut Pro, which covers some program writing background and how important architecture is to a software application. Naturally Philip turns the discussion toward metadata and what can theoretically be done to automate workflows with metadata in the future.

Before the show concludes they wonder if Apple’s market share will decline in the face of strong offerings from Avid (Media Composer 5) and Adobe (Premiere Pro CS5).

19 thoughts on “Episode 1

    1. Terry prefers Media Composer because, in his circumstances finishing projects for others, it’s a tighter more consistent workflow. I say that as a FCP user and somewhat fan.


  1. Wow. Hater huh?

    There are lots of things I don’t like in lots of different software. If it was up to me, all software packages would be perfect for my workflows. So… back to reality.

    In my universe, which is putting the polish on shows (color correction, graphic design, sound mixing, etc.) the ability to capture from and go back out to tape seamlessly is paramount. This happens to be a weak areas for FCP. So yes, I really don’t like using FCP for that part of my world. Doesn’t make me a hater any more than condemning Avid for not significantly updating the color correction tools in this century.

  2. Yes!! The rant is back!! Ahh, how I miss these stimulating conversations done with wit and a sense of humor. Terry & Philip are the perfect foils! Loved the idea when I first heard many months back and so happy that it became reality.

  3. Lost a little respect for Terry. I can’t believe he thinks this about FCP. FCP is OLD CODE? What about AVID? That’s pretty damn old. So old that Red Giant Software can’t make Colorista 2 work properly on it, because it is so limited.

    Terry says that so much is broken and not working with FCP, that is contrary to my experience. If it was as bad as he makes it, NO ONE would be using it professionally….much less Bunim/Murray and NFL Films.

    Avid MC is a CLOSED application. (Well, it was until now.) Meaning that everything had to be converted to the codecs it works with, and that’s a good thing for stability. Everything must conform to the way Avid does things, or it doesn’t work. That is a VERY GOOD way of ensuring things will work.

    FCP’s strength is that it is very OPEN. You can approach things in many ways with FCP, which is why I really like it. BUT, you must know what you are doing. If you don’t, and boy are there a LOT of people using FCP who have no clue, or little clue, then you can paint yourself into a corner, and then try to get Terry to get you out of it. And when you make so many mistakes, trying to fix them can be impossible. Is it the fault of the app, or the editor?

    Same arguement about gun control can be made I suppose…what kills, the gun or the gun owner? The gun owner, weilding the gun. But if they were trained in the proper use, and followed the guidlines (don’t shoot people), then things will work out.

    Avid is superior in how it deals with media. (Well, until now.) Just wait until Terry has to deal with people who used AMA to access and edit all this footage natively. Avid lowered the bar to FCPs level. But FCP is so much easier to edit with on the timeline. 8 years on the Avid, 4 on FCP, and I am still more comfortable with FCP.

    Sorry Terry, but I onlined 48 shows last year…all coming from and going to tape, and I barely had any issues. 99% error free. The 1% error was user error. I even flew to Dallas to capture footage from 78 beta and digibeta tapes using my laptop, hard drive, and MXO2. Smooth as silk.

    It’s not the app, its the operator. As for that other nonsense about FCP being only 1% of Apple entirely, so why would they care…what percentage of Avid is Media Composer? More than 1% I’m sure. But if it was…10%. Does Avid only care about Media Composer about 10%? Hardly. Will Apple make FCP more iMovie like with just a button for web publishing? No. I’ll wager money on that.

    Final Cut Pro, like Avid Media Composer, is a BROADCAST EDITOR…meant for broadcast work. If it was meant for web work, it’d edit all sorts of wonky codecs.

  4. Hey Shane, how well does the DMV work? Yet every driver in California uses them. And has for a long time. So the argument that a lot of people use something doesn’t necessarily mean it’s good.

    People have shot and finished shows on VHS. Does that make VHS the same quality as HDCAMSR?

    Just because someone can make something work by carefully controlling how it is used, as in FCP for the broadcast world, doesn’t mean it’s the best product for the job.

    And I know you like to blame the operator, so I tell you what, I’ll offer you a challenge. I’ll dig ups some old projects that were particularly challenging, and you can take them home and output them to HDCAMSR that will pass QC, and then we’ll talk.

    Until you’ve walked in my shoes, or done the amount of varied format work that we do (and that is far more than Bunim Murray can even imagine), then please don’t assume to understand the issues we run into.

    Heck, I would just like to see you assemble edit a 720 60P show to SR and then go back and successfully insert some corrected shots into said master. Can I laugh while you try?

  5. Hey guys,
    Rants galore! Great to hear about your opinionated opinions…
    Keep it funny. Looking forward for your next shows.
    As for the Terrence/Shane fist fight, I believe both can be right. In our video world, so many problems can arise from so many different reasons, there is no one way to look at it.
    Phillip, iJust hope FCP gets updated before 2012…

  6. I find that FCP seems to be more frame-accurate with 29.97fps media. Deviate from that and then you want to rip your hair out. Just cause anybody can buy an iMac with FCP already installed now ANYONE can pretend to be an editor. Sure it’s super easy and relatively dumb-proof to use in the box. Any monkey can connect a firewire cable to their camera.

    If Apple really cared about how their product handles what happens outside of the box they would make hardware for that instead of us having to rely on Kona or Blackmagic. You all know where they believe the money is and what makes more sense for them. They will only ever make hardware like i-whatevers. Don’t hold your breath waiting for the iBOB to appear.

    What has changed between FCS2 and FCS3? Colored tabs? Timecode window? The machine templates are still as generic as they started with. But now for some reason the framerates on the Device settings need to be tweaked otherwise you get the infamous “general error 88 (or 92)”. Please. Don’t forget that those of you working in FCP coming from Avid enjoy it because that’s where the work shifted to cause companies and independents could afford a Mac Pro and FCP and a diesel video card for what it would cost for just the MC software.

    As for me, I don’t prefer Avid or FCP. Give me Pro Tools anyday. :0

  7. Well Terry, I’m still waiting for you to hire me…was going to use that as a way to proove that FCP is all that. So, since I am not too busy now, if you want to dig up an old project, let me fiddle with it, then output at your facility, I’m all for it. An audition if you will.

    I haven’t had the pleasure of outputting 720p60 yet…well, to DVCPRO HD via the 1400 deck, but only once, and only for promo use. Mainly I output 1080 29.97 or 1080 23.98…so you might have me on that one.

    1. Because, if you were reading the original article, Avid have already rewritten or no longer need to rewrite. The whole idea was only an idea because Apple *had to rewrite to keep* Log and Capture. Just keeping it is not an option, work has to be done.


  8. And by Operator Error, I mean the people who are capturing the footage to begin with. Mixing all of these formats and frame rates without thought about the final product. Avid is better here in that it forces you into using the AVID codecs. Although now with AMA, I’m sure you’ll run into a slew of issues that plagued you with FCP. And mixing of footage is much better in the latest version of MC…I’ll grant you that.

  9. FCPs does too. I still argue that the main reason Avid is so solid is the way it forces people to use the Avid codecs. And FCP is very open so people can do any old thing…and typically do end up doing any old thing…and they expect it to work. Well, it doesn’t. If you follow the same guidelines, and capture to supported FCP codecs, and keep everything uniform, then things work just fine.

    And yes Philip, Apple will have to re-write it. Just like Avid did. Just because Avid did it a while ago and Apple is just now getting around to it doesn’t mean that Apple should NOT do it? Why not? Avid did. And as many people pointed out, we will still be capturing from and ouputting to tape for a long long time. So it makes zero sense for Apple to drop the interface. Makes as much sense as Avid dropping it.

  10. First off, I must say, I really enjoyed this first podcast. Sorry – I’m a bit late to the game! It’s exactly the kind of show I love listening to on the road – industry professionals just chatting about the technology and workflows they both love and hate.

    I am currently working as post production supervisor at one of the most reputable offline houses in Melbourne, Australia. We cut on a mixture of Avid Media Composer and Final Cut Pro – depending on the editor for any particular job. Although we have solid workflows for both software packages – I have to say, on a day to day basis, we have far more issues with Final Cut Pro than we do with Avid. That’s not to say that Avid is bulletproof – in fact far from it. However, if I look at my list of known Final Cut Pro bugs, versus my list of known Avid bugs, the difference is remarkable.

    Personally, I think the reason that so many people love Final Cut Pro, and why so many of these people report that they don’t have any issues with it, all depends on the job. Most of our jobs are shot using dual system sound. A lot of the bugs we come up against are with syncing and sub-clipping. I don’t think this is a usual operation for most FCP users (as they just record sound to camera). We are also constantly working on the same projects in different edit suites, and working at the same project on the same time. We have good workflows in place to make this work – but occasionally, FCP gets confused, and things just break. We never have these same issues in Avid. We can easily throw bins around between all the different suites – regardless of what version of Avid it’s running. That’s the beauty of Avid – we can just drag and drop a bin from 3.1 that works beautifully in 4.0.5 or 5.0.3! We have found with FCP, that the only RELIABLE way to share projects and XMLs is if we’re running exactly the same version of MacOS, Quicktime and FCP on each machine.

    That said… some of our editors love FCP, so we use it, and we make it work. It’s not perfect – but every now and again even Avid throws us a bug that makes us all scratch our heads. Either way – we always find a solution. Personally though, I’d recommend Avid over FCP any day of the week!

    Also… someone please correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t the whole reason the iPhone 4 can handle H.264 files so well is not because of the processor or operating system – isn’t it just because it’s got a built in H.264 hardware encoder/decoder?

    Great podcast! And great discussions on this site!

    Keep up the great work!

    Best Regards, Chris!

    1. Good post Chris. Re the H.264 specific question. H.264 playback uses a dedicated chip in the iDevices and is accelerated in the same way by the GPU in the desktop machines. There’s no playback advantage on iDevices as they’re both hardware accelerated.


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